What Are You Doing, Ray?

Hi Isaiah. I just saw this post over at Slice, and frankly, it’s about time someone spoke about this subject because I have no idea how to respond to someone who gives me the number 3 argument that you posted.

I am totally against any association whatsoever with false teachers, or any involvement with a church whose pastor teaches false doctrine. I bolted out of the 3rd church I’ve been to in 6 years because things were getting really messy. (I actually served as a teacher for the Sunday School while I was there.)

So when I left, people where quick to say, “Don’t leave. Stay. Fight for the Truth.” Oh man… no way. I mean, these people deny the true Gospel. They are completely against Scripture. Pure and simple. It’s as if they want to believe the lies.

There is such an underlining importance to be a part of a church, and I understand that, but, at the cost of hearing garbage from the pulpit? Of associating with people who don’t discern? Or don’t want to?

(I think I just went into another subject)

Do I sound frustrated? I hope I do because I am. haha
Anyway, bottom line: help wanted.

I’ve got another question..why would Ray even be invited to rub elbows with these wolves in the first place? If I really wanted to research this, I’d start with Ray. I already know about how he uses the Ten Commandments to convince people that they are sinners, but that’s ALL I know. Even a wolf could agree with what Ray is doing regarding the Commandments. What are his views in other areas? So it makes me wonder….if Ray is accepted amongst the wolves, then what do they have in common? I’m not accusing Ray of anything (in fact I like him) but sheep tend to congregate with sheep, pigs with pigs etc.

In this time we live in with its relentless cry for unity at all costs I believe the area to focus on is this: Wouldn’t someone who looks at the website and sees Ray smiling right along side the likes of a heretic like John Avanzini assume they are in unity?

I would say, yes. Likely the thought would be: Well, if they have any differences it isn’t serious enough to keep them from working together.

Better that Ray would send a clear message to these hucksters that he cannot share the platform with them nor will he allow them to ride on his credibility deeper into the Body of Christ.

Food for thought.

Dear friends,

I recall a pastor who reaches out especially to prostitutes in Geylang, Singapore, and was featured in the news (CNA). I believe he even paid them so as to “book” them for a “night of preaching.”

Although we can never know true MOTIVES, there is a verse from the Bible which says, “Abstain from ALL appearance of evil …”

Also, I wonder why Jesus never dined with Pharisees. (2 John 9-11)

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

(PS: Dear brother Isaiah, my vivas will be this weekend. After that, I’ll be commenting more on your blog )

Hey Isaiah,

i just want to throw my 2 cents in here and relate a story from my past that I think has relevance in this situation. But first let me say that I too have the utmost respect for Ray and his ministry, and I have no doubt that no matter what audience Ray is speaking to they will hear the Gospel, they will hear it straight, and they will hear is without compromise.

So then to answer the question as to whether Ray, or any other Gospel preacher for that matter should speak at a WoF conference. About 15 or so years ago I played guitar in a Christian Heavy Metal band and we were invited several time to play with secular bands in secular venues. We would accept these invitations without hesitation because it gave us the chance to opportunity to share the Gospel in places and to people that we otherwise would not have access to. On the other hand though, as we got bigger and gained a bigger following we would be asked by other secular bands if they could have the opening slot on our stage and we would always say no. The reason was not that we didn’t like these other bands or that we didn’t want to minister to them, it was that we didn’t want to appear that we were supportive of the lifestyle and message they presented by giving them an audience on our stage.

This is the same thing with Ray; he is taking the opportunity to preach the Gospel in a place that would not otherwise hear it and as long as he doesn’t invite Todd Bentley of T.D. Jakes to the Deeper Conference I se absolutely no problem with him preaching at a WoF conference.

Talk to you soon.

Shalom,
Chris

“he is taking the opportunity to preach the Gospel in a place that would not otherwise hear it”

And then leaving the sheep with the wolves without even telling them the grave danger they are in.

The sheep, when they hear His voice, will know it, and they will flee from the voice of the stranger.

Let us be careful not to pre-judge the man. Has Ray Comfort said that he approve their false Gospel?

Like Apostle Peter, we are also ask to give a witness of our faith and to declare the truth. “Always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, in meekness and in fear.” (I Peter 3:15)

The marketing part is a bit glaring and gives a wrong impression. It is important for whoever love the truth not to leave an impression that we approve their errors and false gospel. If Ray goes there and sing their tunes, then we should rightly be appalled by what Ray is doing.

If Ray went there in the full armour of God as a good and faithful soldier of Jesus, all prepared with the true Gospel to show light in these days of darkness, by the scriptures, what is wrong with that ?

Lets take an example from Paul, always ready to speak the truth and testified boldly even to those who “believe not”.

Acts 28:17And it came to pass that after three days Paul called the chief Jews together;……

28:23And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the Kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the Law of Moses and out of the Prophets, from morning until evening.

24And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Anyone involved in the ministry (in any context) would tell us that at some point they would have to “share the platform” with one who is not of the same page as them. I remembered attending a Reformed conference, where the numbers were significantly lower (for that year), because the “keynote” speaker was a divorcee.

I do not know Ray Comfort but I assume that he has to, under this circumstance, share the platform with WOF preachers. Probably not his first choice, but still slightly better than an “inter-faith” meeting.

Just my 2 pence.

Jenson,

There are different degrees of being on a “different page.”

Of course, if we are to speak only in conferences where everybody agreed on everything, then we might as well have a soliloquy in the mirror.

That is, obviously, not the issue here.

Would you share a platform - to preach the unadulterated Gospel - with Kong Hee (and his dancing wife) in City Harvest?

Well, I guess that’s still better than an interfaith meeting.

(Tongue in cheek; no offense)

Yours in Christ,
Vincent

Hi Vincent!

Yup agreed…

Regd Kong Hee (and his dancing wife - is that the Taiwanese/HK pop sensation?) - well, I do not move in that “circles” anymore, so there is very opportunity for me to share the platform with them anyway! I think the same would go for you, too.

Nice thoughts there!

Sincerely,
Jenson

Ray also could have said: I’ll come speak at the conference but since I do not approve of your ministries I do not want my name associated with the promotion of this event.

Then he’d share the gospel as he always does and would have sent a clear message to those who don’t know him–and there are many who do not–as well as to those men who are likely unregenerate.

If WOTM had simply given me a statement from Ray, which I asked for privately 2 days before I wrote my piece, I would simply have published it without comment. They chose not to.

Hmmm… Isaiah, I have replied to your post on this issue here.

Originally Posted By Ken Silva“he is taking the opportunity to preach the Gospel in a place that would not otherwise hear it”

And then leaving the sheep with the wolves without even telling them the grave danger they are in.

I agree here. Ray should preach the whole Gospel, and call those heretics to repentance too.

Eh, the link is missing. It should be here.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID them. For they that are such SERVE NOT our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
- Romans 16:17-18

Does anyone know John MacArthurs or John Pipers stand on this type of problem?

I’m shocked to say the least. I first heard of Ray Comfort as well as Alistair Begg by watching TBN late one night. Why on earth is he on there? Surely he should know better!

Given the opportunity, I’d preach one message to these guys - REPENT AND BELIEVE THE TRUE GOSPEL…INCLUDING YOU HERETICS! Not the sweetest thing on the ear but it’s the most Biblical

I’ve been amazed and saddened by the all out attack on the simplicity of the Eternal Gospel of Grace that’s been launched over the past several days because one Ray Comfort, a well known, orthodox, and faithful bond servant of the Lord Jesus Christ has accepted an invitation again (and much to the chagrin of some) to preach the foolishness of the cross at an upcoming Word of Faith conference.

Maybe I’m just terribly dense on this matter, and perhaps a loving brother or sister in the Lord out there can help me to understand, but I’m still looking for ONE scriptural precedent wherein ministers of the gospel EVER placed preconditions or caveats upon the faithful proclamation of the eternal gospel of grace under ANY circumstances; or perhaps for ONE scriptural case wherein any believer or group of believers are exhorted in the scriptures to place certain “in advance”demands or prerequisites upon another believer prior to his ministering of the gospel. It seems to me that something this important wouldn’t have been overlooked in the Bible say, for example, when the Lord Jesus Christ gave the Great Commission. Bravo to those who are willing and able to boldly stand on the infallible Word of God and faithfully proclaim His pure and eternal gospel of grace at every opportunity and especially in the face of opposition - whatever its source - for they are being faithful to King Jesus and His Great Commission to the praise of His glory alone forever and evermore.

I’m also still a bit confused as to why some sovereign grace Christians apparently seem to believe that the Lord God Omnipotent is so powerless and thoughtless that He would miraculously regenerate His elect through the faithful proclamation of His eternal gospel of grace and then simply abandon His child to languish and “drink spiritual poison” allowing them to remain in deception underneath false teaching and thus be unfaithful to His promise to finish the good work that He has begun (Philippians 1:6). Can someone help me out here? What love is this? What happened to sovereign grace?

Why has the conception of the absolutely sovereign One True and Living God of the Holy Bible become so small as to think that the power of His eternal gospel of grace needs a little help from sinful men to REALLY get the point across because, well, you know, people are REALLY deceived by Satan?

When did the church begin believing the lie that Satan’s power of deception is greater than the One True and Living God’s gospel power of salvation? Our God is God. Our God reigns. He sits in the heavens and does as He pleases (Psalm 115:3). When did the church begin ascribing God’s attributes to the enemy?

The power of the eternal gospel of grace is more than sufficient to overcome all the wiles and deceits of the enemy by God’s power alone. Have faith.

The eternal gospel of grace faithfully presented is more than sufficient and it is in fact God’s chosen means whereby sinners are supernaturally and miraculously converted to faith in Jesus Christ by grace through faith in Him alone. God’s power to save His elect from every kingdom, tribe, tongue and nation is omnipotent and is able to save His chosen to the uttermost.

It seems to me that if one wishes to quote Jude 3 (as some have) as a proof text against those who would boldly and faithfully proclaim the eternal gospel to ANYONE, ANYWHERE then let’s please continue to read on down through verses 21-23 and then let’s be obedient to the WHOLE COUNSEL of God. The same goes for 2 Cor. 6:14-18 – I think all discerning, orthodox, Bible-believing Christians would agree the WoF cultists aren’t in the church so in its proper context this application fails the “proof text test” as well as this text is clearly referring to brothers and sisters inside the church who are living in sinful immorality and does not refer to those outside the church – even if they claim to be “true Christians” (i.e. Mormons and JW’s). Lastly 2 John 10-11 has exactly nothing to do with the situation at hand because the admonishment herein is to not receive such people into the church (and at the time of writing most likely admonished against receiving such into the house churches in a spirit of Christian hospitality and fellowship which cannot be applied to unbelievers) which is the exact reverse of faithfully going out into the world and preaching the gospel unto unsaved false believers (such as WoF cultists) with a bold and unflinching faith that God will save those whom He has elected by His sovereign grace and power alone.

There is, however, at least one viable argument that could be made if one were to consider the fact that 2 Cor is a FOLLOW UP to 1 Cor in which case we can look back and see another possibility (one which I think may be in play in this whole dust up) which is that Ray’s attendance at the conference is causing his brothers and sisters who are weaker in the faith to stumble (1 Cor 10:27-28). In this case Ray’s appearance definitely is given scriptural grounds for pause, but in all other complaints that I’ve seen lodged thus far the charges are simply out of context non-sequiturs and unbiblical straw man arguments.

In closing it would seem that if one actually wanted to make a compelling case as to why Ray shouldn’t preach the gospel (or “appear with” or “share the platform with” or whatever) at the upcoming WoF conference then someone should write to him and tell him that they’re weak in their faith and it will cause them to stumble if he does so.

@Coram Deo -

I have replied to your points made here (and on your blog too), at my own blog here.

to be honest, I’m scared when it comes to facing controversies in my faith especially with those who “understand” it so “differently” from me.

As a teenager, I often face this especially with peers of the catholic faith or “charismatics” (term used loosely) who believe in gifts more than God. Again as a teenager I often stand up and question them and argue about issues that are in conflict. But at that time, I noticed and regretted that non-believers who hear this are sneering because we who are “christians” are arguing amongst ourselves!

But in this case with Ray Comfort, I believe that, it is not who he associates with that is the problem. I remember a passage in the four gospels where Jesus’ disciples once told Him that there were others who were casting out demons for the wrong purposes in His name. Jesus told them that it did not matter how people are brought to God as long as they are. As to those who speak falsely or with wrong intentions, they are accountable to God.

To me, Ray is only doing what God commissioned him to do. Go and preach the gospel to all nations; and not just the jews but the gentiles. While we’re on earth, should we not try to fix our ways and then the ways of those around us? Before we face judgment?

The weak may stumble at this but God will not leave them alone for he will never forsake them.

“The weak may stumble at this but God will not leave them alone for he will never forsake them.”

True Carolyn, so True.