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	<title>Comments on: Response to a Roman Catholic</title>
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	<link>http://wordnverse.com/2008/05/06/response-to-a-roman-catholic/</link>
	<description>Glorifying Christ; Edifying and Warning the Flock</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jenson</title>
		<link>http://wordnverse.com/2008/05/06/response-to-a-roman-catholic/comment-page-1/#comment-384</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 09:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wordnverse.com/?p=13#comment-384</guid>
		<description>Hi Vincent,

&lt;i&gt;"The view is exegetically weak..."&lt;/i&gt;
I would say that the view is non-existent, apart from the sad incident between David and Bathsheba - leading to the death of their baby. 

&lt;i&gt;"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."  2 Samuel 12:23.&lt;/i&gt;
Was David referring to the grave? Or Heaven? Who knows...

I am not in the position to judge the secret workings of the Spirit, so I do  not have the answer to your questions. Sorry...

A very good friend of mine (we were ushers at each other's weddings) lost his first born son last year, and at the funeral, I heard a sermon preached concerning the death of infants - who would be with the Lord. The couple were greatly comforted. 

As a father who witnessed the birth of his 3 daughters, I can say that it was an act of mercy that they survived, and so did my wife. 

Sincerely,
Jenson</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Vincent,</p>
<p><i>&#8220;The view is exegetically weak&#8230;&#8221;</i><br />
I would say that the view is non-existent, apart from the sad incident between David and Bathsheba - leading to the death of their baby. </p>
<p><i>&#8220;But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.&#8221;  2 Samuel 12:23.</i><br />
Was David referring to the grave? Or Heaven? Who knows&#8230;</p>
<p>I am not in the position to judge the secret workings of the Spirit, so I do  not have the answer to your questions. Sorry&#8230;</p>
<p>A very good friend of mine (we were ushers at each other&#8217;s weddings) lost his first born son last year, and at the funeral, I heard a sermon preached concerning the death of infants - who would be with the Lord. The couple were greatly comforted. </p>
<p>As a father who witnessed the birth of his 3 daughters, I can say that it was an act of mercy that they survived, and so did my wife. </p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Jenson</p>
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		<title>By: Isaiah</title>
		<link>http://wordnverse.com/2008/05/06/response-to-a-roman-catholic/comment-page-1/#comment-381</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 09:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wordnverse.com/?p=13#comment-381</guid>
		<description>Martin,

I haven't had time to read the document in full as yet, but when I have finished, I might do a post on it.

That said, let me answer your question of whether we ourselves can interpret the Bible correctly or if we have to rely on theologians and leaders to help us do so.

The fact is we &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; interpret the Bible for ourselves correctly if we are led by the Holy Spirit. John 16:13-14 tells us that Jesus said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Who has the Holy Spirit? Those who are born again, which includes every true Christian, for that is the promise given of God.

Yes, we can have an open mind to reasoning, but the reasoning itself must be Biblical! And even if someone comes along to present another view of a verse, we must be diligent to seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in guiding us to His truth.

Many times in my Christian walk, I have had the Holy Spirit teach me new things that I have never realized. The Bible is such a treasure trove for me because the more I read it, the more I am taught. Sometimes it amazes me that verses that we quote and take for granted have a wonderful teaching behind it that we ourselves do not realize, but that the Holy Spirit guides us into understanding.

I'll give you another example: my wife, who was a Roman Catholic and had never read the Bible in its entirety before, has just done so a couple of months ago. There was no priming from me, but we let the Holy Spirit work in her. Other than a few things that we discussed, she totally understood the Bible and what God says! In fact, she has been given discernment that might be rare for a new believer (I might be wrong here) to be able to tell the half-truths and lies apart from what God really says in His Word.

So, Martin, we do not need theologians or the magisterium to help us interpret the Bible. If one is a born-again Christian, the Holy Spirit dwells in you and guides the believer unto all God's truths. 

In closing, I'd like to say that pertaining to the issue of salvation, Jesus' words are direct and true and need no other interpretation either in light of historical or societal contexts: He alone is THE way, THE truth, and THE light, and no one goes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). In fact, I'd say that it is so clear that any non-believer coming across this verse alone will easily deduce that Christ Jesus is saying that He alone offers salvation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin,</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t had time to read the document in full as yet, but when I have finished, I might do a post on it.</p>
<p>That said, let me answer your question of whether we ourselves can interpret the Bible correctly or if we have to rely on theologians and leaders to help us do so.</p>
<p>The fact is we <em>can</em> interpret the Bible for ourselves correctly if we are led by the Holy Spirit. John 16:13-14 tells us that Jesus said:</p>
<blockquote><p>When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.</p></blockquote>
<p>Who has the Holy Spirit? Those who are born again, which includes every true Christian, for that is the promise given of God.</p>
<p>Yes, we can have an open mind to reasoning, but the reasoning itself must be Biblical! And even if someone comes along to present another view of a verse, we must be diligent to seek the Holy Spirit&#8217;s guidance in guiding us to His truth.</p>
<p>Many times in my Christian walk, I have had the Holy Spirit teach me new things that I have never realized. The Bible is such a treasure trove for me because the more I read it, the more I am taught. Sometimes it amazes me that verses that we quote and take for granted have a wonderful teaching behind it that we ourselves do not realize, but that the Holy Spirit guides us into understanding.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll give you another example: my wife, who was a Roman Catholic and had never read the Bible in its entirety before, has just done so a couple of months ago. There was no priming from me, but we let the Holy Spirit work in her. Other than a few things that we discussed, she totally understood the Bible and what God says! In fact, she has been given discernment that might be rare for a new believer (I might be wrong here) to be able to tell the half-truths and lies apart from what God really says in His Word.</p>
<p>So, Martin, we do not need theologians or the magisterium to help us interpret the Bible. If one is a born-again Christian, the Holy Spirit dwells in you and guides the believer unto all God&#8217;s truths. </p>
<p>In closing, I&#8217;d like to say that pertaining to the issue of salvation, Jesus&#8217; words are direct and true and need no other interpretation either in light of historical or societal contexts: He alone is THE way, THE truth, and THE light, and no one goes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). In fact, I&#8217;d say that it is so clear that any non-believer coming across this verse alone will easily deduce that Christ Jesus is saying that He alone offers salvation.</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent Chia</title>
		<link>http://wordnverse.com/2008/05/06/response-to-a-roman-catholic/comment-page-1/#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Chia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 08:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wordnverse.com/?p=13#comment-380</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jenson for your input.

"Personally, I trust that the souls of any dying infants would be with the Lord."

Why so? :-?? 

The view is exegetically weak, but I wouldn't deny that it is comforting for any parent to believe that their infant (Ro 3:23) is in heaven. Where in the Bible does it say that all dead infants are elect?

If a mother aborts her child, the infant goes to be with the Lord. That's truly an assurance of salvation. If the child grows up and denies the Lord, isn't it better for the body to be killed in infancy than for the soul to be lost as an adult? (Mk 8:37)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jenson for your input.</p>
<p>&#8220;Personally, I trust that the souls of any dying infants would be with the Lord.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why so? :-?? </p>
<p>The view is exegetically weak, but I wouldn&#8217;t deny that it is comforting for any parent to believe that their infant (Ro 3:23) is in heaven. Where in the Bible does it say that all dead infants are elect?</p>
<p>If a mother aborts her child, the infant goes to be with the Lord. That&#8217;s truly an assurance of salvation. If the child grows up and denies the Lord, isn&#8217;t it better for the body to be killed in infancy than for the soul to be lost as an adult? (Mk 8:37)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jenson</title>
		<link>http://wordnverse.com/2008/05/06/response-to-a-roman-catholic/comment-page-1/#comment-379</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 08:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wordnverse.com/?p=13#comment-379</guid>
		<description>Dear Vincent,

Regarding the issue of WCF 10:3 "Elect infants...", these are my 2 pence...

I believe that when the WCF was written in England in 1647, England was a "Christian/Protestant" country. Everyone was "elect" unless proven otherwise. At that time, the number of babies dying at infancy were high. This doctrine (WCF 10:3) brought great comfort to the grieving parents when it happen to their family. 

On a side issue, you can see the great relieve and thanksgiving a women gave to God after surviving through child-birth - reflected in the Church of England's Book of Common Prayer on the chapter "The Churching of Women - The Thanksgiving of Women after Child-Birth". 

It may be of interest to some that the older Baptist documents also follow this line, until quite late in their history where they dropped the word "elect" e.g. Spurgeon. I see the wisdom in that since Baptists do not baptise their infants, the inclusion of the word "elect" may cause a stumbling block to a Baptist family who have lost their infant.

Apart from the semantic issue, some would argue (both for/against) that another reason for dropping the word "Elect" is due to the high number abortions carried out in recent years. Personally, I trust that the souls of any dying infants would be with the Lord. 

Just some thoughts. :&#124; 

Sincerely,
Jenson</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Vincent,</p>
<p>Regarding the issue of WCF 10:3 &#8220;Elect infants&#8230;&#8221;, these are my 2 pence&#8230;</p>
<p>I believe that when the WCF was written in England in 1647, England was a &#8220;Christian/Protestant&#8221; country. Everyone was &#8220;elect&#8221; unless proven otherwise. At that time, the number of babies dying at infancy were high. This doctrine (WCF 10:3) brought great comfort to the grieving parents when it happen to their family. </p>
<p>On a side issue, you can see the great relieve and thanksgiving a women gave to God after surviving through child-birth - reflected in the Church of England&#8217;s Book of Common Prayer on the chapter &#8220;The Churching of Women - The Thanksgiving of Women after Child-Birth&#8221;. </p>
<p>It may be of interest to some that the older Baptist documents also follow this line, until quite late in their history where they dropped the word &#8220;elect&#8221; e.g. Spurgeon. I see the wisdom in that since Baptists do not baptise their infants, the inclusion of the word &#8220;elect&#8221; may cause a stumbling block to a Baptist family who have lost their infant.</p>
<p>Apart from the semantic issue, some would argue (both for/against) that another reason for dropping the word &#8220;Elect&#8221; is due to the high number abortions carried out in recent years. Personally, I trust that the souls of any dying infants would be with the Lord. </p>
<p>Just some thoughts. <img src='http://wordnverse.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_neutral.gif' alt=':|' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Jenson</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://wordnverse.com/2008/05/06/response-to-a-roman-catholic/comment-page-1/#comment-376</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 04:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wordnverse.com/?p=13#comment-376</guid>
		<description>Can we really interpret the BIBLE correctly and un-biasly, not based on prejudices, our family or social background, religious background and influence from others that conditioned our thinking ? Can we be so absolutely sure we understand the BIBLE in its totality? As the author mention, no one (except God) has the whole Truth. 

OR are you claiming only you REALLY understand what the Bible is really saying ? 

That's why we must have an open mind to reasoning. Didn't we all read a book or discuss or learn with/from someone for more knowledge ? WHO can claim that he doesn't need to learn from others ?

"A cursory read of one chapter — that on whether non-Christians are saved — already shows up numerous holes in his argument and several verses quoted out of context even though he himself says that one must read the Bible in context…" 

I think you miss the point here. Did he not compare the contradictory texts in the Bible ? Did he not show what the situation of that time when explaining a verse ? 

We cannot allow our arrogance to get hold of us. We need theologians to uncover the message in the Bible, same as we allow doctors to treat the sick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we really interpret the BIBLE correctly and un-biasly, not based on prejudices, our family or social background, religious background and influence from others that conditioned our thinking ? Can we be so absolutely sure we understand the BIBLE in its totality? As the author mention, no one (except God) has the whole Truth. </p>
<p>OR are you claiming only you REALLY understand what the Bible is really saying ? </p>
<p>That&#8217;s why we must have an open mind to reasoning. Didn&#8217;t we all read a book or discuss or learn with/from someone for more knowledge ? WHO can claim that he doesn&#8217;t need to learn from others ?</p>
<p>&#8220;A cursory read of one chapter — that on whether non-Christians are saved — already shows up numerous holes in his argument and several verses quoted out of context even though he himself says that one must read the Bible in context…&#8221; </p>
<p>I think you miss the point here. Did he not compare the contradictory texts in the Bible ? Did he not show what the situation of that time when explaining a verse ? </p>
<p>We cannot allow our arrogance to get hold of us. We need theologians to uncover the message in the Bible, same as we allow doctors to treat the sick.</p>
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