There’s an interesting debate going on in response to my post “Short Takes” that went up over the weekend on the issue of tongues, healing and the gifts of the Spirit.
I’m staying out of it for good reason, but I hope the brothers debating will do it in the spirit of brotherly love.
It is also interesting that Justin at Awesome Purpose wrote on the gift of tongues earlier in the week. I don’t believe in coincidences, so there must be something God is saying to us in the community that I’m in.
Anyhow, pertaining to my non-participation in the debate, you must be asking what good reason or reasons I have for not doing so by now.
I think it boils down to the fact that I think I am scarred in this aspect of my Christian walk.
You see, I was once in a Pentecostal movement that I later fled from because the leaders and some peers wanted to teach me to speak in tongues, seeing that I wasn’t blessed in that sense. And when I left, I was led by a good lecturer at the college to attend a very conservative, Reformed church — Life Bible-Presbyterian Church at Gilstead Road.
So, as you can now clearly see, I went from one extreme to another — from being fully immersed in an environment where gifts of the Spirit are the primary focus of the Christian life to where gifts like tongues and so on are believed to have ceased (Cessationists), or at least not as emphasized as in Charismatic or Pentecostal circles.
That makes me a rather confused person, don’t you think?
If someone were to ask me today where I stand on this issue, I’d just say that I’m somewhere in between.
I believe that there are instances where God shall bestow folks with the gifts of prophecy, healing, tongues, etc., but it might not be on such a ‘popular’ scale as what the Pentecostal movement teaches where anyone and everyone shall be able to speak in tongues at the drop of a hat, or that every Pentecostal pastor is a healer and a prophet.
At the same time, I am not totally convinced that some of the tongues, healing and so on are true manifestations of the Spirit.
Now, before you cut in and say “oh, how can you not believe in the gifts of the Spirit?!”, consider that I’ve seen and experienced very bad instances of such ‘manifestations’. Do also take into consideration that in my readings and fact-finding, I’ve come across instances where non-Christians are able to do the same!
I don’t believe that the manifestation of the Spirit shall hit a man till he falls backwards in an awkward manner, or foam at the mouth, or writhe about on the floor like a serpent, or at the wave of one’s hand many shall fall backwards under the ‘power’, or go into a trance-like state.
In fact, the trances remind me of how some Chinese temple mediums go into their trances, cut themselves or stick knives and so on into their flesh to indicate that they have the spirit of a god in them.
As for tongues, even the Roman Catholic pope spoke in tongues, and so do the Charismatic Roman Catholics. Now, I don’t consider the Roman Catholic Church Christian because they preach another gospel (but that’s another story so comments on that won’t be entertained).
So what gives, really?
I just yearn for the simple faith that we need to have, as like little children, with our hearts and minds set upon the kingdom of God and working on our salvation with fear and trembling.
It’s sad but true that there’s so much confusion and heresy in these last days so much so I feel that it’s all the more imperative that we go back to the simplicity of our faith and five Solas — Sola Sciptura, Sola Fide, Soli Del Gloria, Sola Gratia, and Solus Christus.
Above all, we are called to love God with all hearts, souls, and minds, and to love others as we love ourselves.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matthew 24:35-40
Shalom Aleichem.
Photo ‘Dancing in the Spirit’ by Richard Masoner.
Tags: Cessationists, Charismatics, Confusion, Debate, Gifts, Pentecostals, Spirits, Tongues
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Dude…
Your blog is always relevant, and interesting. That is why I have selected you for the Thinking Blogger Award. You can check out my post about it at…
http://bibledude.net/WordPress/?p=55By the way, I will try to stay out of this conversation about tongues as well, even though I have very strong beliefs about it. Maybe I’ll post on that as well sometime…
Thanks! Keep up the great work!
Dan -
I think that 1 Corinithians 14 gives us guidance in how we should handle tongues and sign gifts. I am not a cessionist because I do not see in Scripture clarity on this subject. Disspensationalists and other cessessionists (by the way I would consider myself a Reformed evangelical) look at 1 Corinithians 13:10 as their proof, but it really depends on what is meant by perfect… does it mean scripture in that the canon is complete so that tongues and prophecy is no longer needed? Or does it mean when Jesus returns? It really isn’t clear.
Now I do not speak in tongues and where I would differ from my pentecostal/charismatic brothers and sisters is that the gift should not be elevated above all the rest. It is God who determines what gift each person is to receive. Also much harm has been done by trying to convince those who do not have that spiritual gift that they have not been baptized by the Holy Spirit. Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit is the seal of our salvation with whom we are baptized upon receiving Christ.
Also I have sat in on Pentecostal worship and the lack of order and interpretation is contrary to what scripture teaches in 1 Corinthians 14.
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Amen, Isaiah. Very well said. This post reminded me of 1 Corinthians 13 as well.
Blessings to you!
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Shane:
I do not consider 1 Cor. 13:10 as the proof-text for Cessationism. In fact, I think if anyone is a Cessationist based on 1 Cor. 13, then they don’t really have a solid foundation to base their rejection of the sign-gifts.
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Woah, thanks a million, Dan! I’m honored, and now I do have to think of who in the many blogs I read deserve this as well, ha ha!
Shalom!
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Shane,
I think I kind of share your position as to where I stand as far as denominations are concerned. Where the difference lies is that I tend to just label myself Reformed, without any tag behind.
Thank you for adding me to your blogroll! I’m honored, brother. You’re on mine too.
Shalom! -
Daniel,
That’s most interesting! Most cessationists’ teachings are based on that from what I heard. If you have time, can you kindly expound on what you pointed out?
Shalom!
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Be assured that 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is talking about when we get to Heaven (so to speak). For there will no longer be any need of such things.
Now, concerning the gifts of Spirit in general: be assured that they are all very much still available; but it would do us well not to think of them as being independent of the Source. For instead of it being that certain ones are imbued with certain gifts: the absolute truth of the matter truly is that it is actually our Heavenly Father’s Holy Spirit who is doing whatever is being done THROUGH them, much in the same way as electricity flows THROUGH a wire, but the wire itself has no charge of its own. For it truly is as it is written: Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. {1 Corinthians 12:7-11 NIV}
As in regards unto the Spiritual gift of speaking in tongues in particular: be assured that it has more to do with talking about stuff that others cannot naturally understand than with speaking in unknown tongues. For 1 Corinthians 13:1 alludes unto an angelic language, which leaves the door open for that for all who would like to go there; but we would do well to focus our attention upon what 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 provides written confirmation of: This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. {1 Corinthians 2:13-14 NIV}
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Isaiah:
Eh, actually that would probably be the next topic I would be touching on in my blog, but it’s not an easy topic. But I have read enough to know that 1 Cor. 13 cannot bear the weight classic Cessationism puts on it. I agree with my continualist brethren here against the Cessationists with regards to the interpretation of 1 Cor. 13. That said does not make me a continualist though. There is another way through this fog, but I am still in the process of thinking over the issue, and by no means am I as well read on the issue than on the current issue on my blog which I would be finishing very soon. Soteriology has always been my forte, with Epistemology, Apologetics, Bibliogy next, and the issue of the gifts of the Spirit, compared with the others, is the one subject I am least well read of (OK, better than Eschatology).
Nevertheless, I would be looking into the issue as it is an important issue, and it sure impacts a lot of us, unfortunately. Like you, I don’t have a good impression of Charismatism due to he abuses I have seen in the movement, not to mention the rotten fruit of most charismatic churches (cf Mt. 7: 16-20) - a big turn-off. But we must resist committing the genetic fallacy and reject continualism because of the bad fruits of most charismatic churches. So I am open to all views, though cautiously examining everything with a fine tooth comb according to Scripture.
Anyway, if you want to know more about my views on this matter, you will need wait for me to finish thinking through, reading and studying the issue, before I blog about it. So, stay tuned.
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Thanks, Daniel. I definitely will be staying tuned to that! I’ve got you locked in at Bloglines.
Shalom! -
Dear Isaiah,
There are genuine gifts of the Spirit and there are counterfeits. Would you stop using real money just because there are counterfeit ones? The charisma gifts are very holy as they are the very manifestation of the Spirit Himself. I’ve been exposed to more gift abuse than you have, but if you take that kind of attitude you can’t move on with God in His ministry.
Take these steps as outline [find the reference from 1 Cor 12-14]
(1) Do not be ignorant of the charisma gifts
(2) Ask for the gifts with a motive to help others [Remember my post on being faithful with the little- if you aren't faithful with what the Lord has already given you, make use of what you already have and the Lord will bless you with more as His Spirit wills]
(3) Desires/Covet earnestly the best gifts and be zealous for them.
(4) Follow the greater way of love in using the gifts.
I have received the gifts without asking, and I have received gifts by seeking God for it. But in the end, the gifts are given severally as the Spirit wills.
Don’t settle for a false humility, where you open your ears to all the junk others have to say. The WORD is all we need. To me, humility is agreeing with what God says, no matter what traditional teachings have to say and no matter what experience has to say.
Many people who debate on tongues, healings and miracles have no Bible experience, they’re just running along with head knowledge.
Sidharth
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Oh but before the charisma gifts, seek God for His Spirit baptism, brother. This experience turned my life upside down!
Again as someone said in here, without the fruit of the Spirit, you’re of no value to the Master.
Remember, Saul could prophesy even after the Presence of the Lord left him. This is because the gifts of the Spirit are exactly what they are called “Gifts” and not “Loans”. Romans 11:29, teaches that the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable.
This is what you see in Matthew 7.:15 onwards. The only way you and I can know if the person is walking in the Lord is by the genuine fruit of agape love, and not by the gifts of the Spirit. This should however not make us dishonor God’s gifts.
Sidharth
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Hello Sidharth,
The cessationists use inductive reasoning to conclude that the spiritual gifts of tongues and healing have ceased. While their reasoning is not airtight, they do bring up some valid points. I will be blogging about this in detail when I have more free time. Since this is just a comment, I’ll summarize some of the points here. Please look up the referenced verses.
1) Tongues
- Acts 2 — Observe that when the apostles spoke in tongues, the impartial non-believers understood about 8 different languages being spoken. Tongues were real human languages.-1 Cor 12:7 — All gifts must be used for the common good, not for self-edification. Chap 14 makes more sense if you read it with this viewpoint. This is a recurring theme in the Bible (e.g. In the desert, Jesus didn’t turn the stones into bread for his own benefit, and please refer to 1 Peter 4:10-11 and Ephesians 4:29). Therefore, tongues cannot be a prayer language for one’s edification.
- 1 Cor 13:1-3 — Paul used hyperbole and metaphors to illustrate that one must have love when using the gifts to edify others. Paul didn’t have a faith that could move mountains.He also didn’t give all he possessed to the poor, nor did he surrender his body to the flames. Thus it is incorrect to conclude that tongues are an angelic language. Every prayer in the Bible was recorded in a clear understandable language. Tongues, per Acts 2, refer to actual human languages, not angelic languages.
- Now, many pagan religions speak in tongues (i.e. glossolalia). So do the modern day Pentecostals/Charismatics. Many linguists such as William Samarin have studied Pentecostal tongues and pagan tongues — their conclusion is that these tongues do not resemble real languages, they are just babblings. Xenoglossolalia, which are the tongues in Acts 2, is the ability to speak a known human language that one hasn’t learnt before. There has not been a single well-documented case of Xenoglossolia in the past 1800 years. Ever met an impartial non-believer who understood a Pentecostal tongue? Probably not.
Thus it appears that modern tongues are vain babblings, which is contrary to Scripture (Matthew 6:7-8).
Thus I would question the nature and origin of modern day Pentecostal tongues. Although Scripture leads me to conclude a continuationist position, I somehow do not see the real gift of tongues being used at all.
2) Healings
- Sure, God does heal today, but he does not appear to heal through fraudulent faith healers such as Benny “Hill” Hinn and Friends. Pastor John Macarthur’s book, Charismatic Chaos, has an excellent chapter on the healing gift, which I recommend checking out. Here’s one point for you to consider:
Jesus and the apostles could heal organic disease such as leprosy, withered arms, crippled legs, and severed ears. Today’s faith healers seem to “heal” psychogenic and invisible diseases.
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Sidharth:
there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5). The doctrine of a second baptism by the Holy Spirit separate from conversaion is heresy and is a form of error historically called Pietism. All believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit and do not need to speak in tongues and have other strange manifestations in order to prove that they are Holy Spirit baptized. In fact, judging by certain people who have supposedly ‘undergone the 2nd baptism’ like Benny Hinn and Joyce Meyer, not to mention David (Paul) Yonggi Cho, the fact of speaking in tongues is no proof that you were even saved in the first place.
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Whoever wrote the last post, you’re sincerely wrong in many things.
Can you e-mail me, brother? You can use my prayer request column and we can have a HEALTHY discussion as long as we stick to the Word.
Sidharth
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(1) There were 120 gathered in the upper room [Acts 1:15] , not just the 12 apostles and this is what shook the city, and they spoke in 16 different dialects.
(2) They did not preach here, but they were praising God and declaring the wonders of God. [Acts 2:11]. However, this is the only place where the onlookers understood the language they spoke without interpretation because those assembled knew the language. There are 2 other instances where there is no record of this. [Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-6]
(3) You are totally mistaken in the use of tongues. Tongues can be used for:
(a) Personal Devotion
(b) Public Ministry [only with the sister gift of interpr.]In 1 Cor 14, FIRSTLY Paul was speaking of a PUBLIC setting [as when people came together in an assembly]. SECONDLY, he was speaking about the order to be maintained in the church.
Tongues can be used for personal devotion: prayer and praise, but never to be used in a public setting without the sister gift of interpretation of tongues.
By saying this, Paul DOES NOT discourage the use of tongues during personal devotion. In fact Paul clearly says, “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.” [1 Cor 14:18-19]
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. [1 Cor 14:3]
This verse plainly tells us that one who prays in tongues prays to God. And that praying in tongues builds himself up [Greek].
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues [verse 5].
This verse shows us that Paul was not speaking against using tongues during personal devotion as in prayer and praise. But he didn’t want them to come to church and speak loudly in tongues as is seen in many assemblies today.
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. [1 Cor 14:14-15]
Praying in tongues goes beyond the realm of the mind and reasoning, as you are praying in your spirit. Our mind is limited, and many times what we pray with our understanding is insufficient as we may not know the heart of God concerning the matter we are praying for. But the Spirit knows and He intercedes for us in the will of the Father.
But then again Paul talks about how this should be in a public setting…If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
Where in the Bible does it say that edifying the spirit or building up yourself is wrong?
But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. [Jude 20]
Is that wrong too? In fact the same Greek word used in 1 Cor 14:4
I don’t have time, or I’d explain all these.
Sidharth
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Concerning Ephesians 4:5, we need to understand in what context Paul was saying this verse. Paul was speaking about how Jesus destroyed the barrier and dividing wall of hostility between the Gentiles and Jews (Ephesians 2:14). His purpose was to create in Himself ONE new man out of the two …in His ONE body He reconciled both of them to God through the cross… and through Him we both have access to the Father by ONE Spirit. (Ephesians 2:15-18). There is only ONE Lord for both the Jews and the Gentiles, not two. There is only ONE baptism (in this case water baptism) for the Jews and the Gentiles, not two. There is only ONE faith for the Jews and the Gentiles, and not two.
Ephesians 4:5 is often used to disregard the baptism in the Holy Spirit. However, we realize Paul did not disregard this, as in the foundational doctrines mentioned in Hebrew 6:2 he speaks of “doctrine of baptisms”. Notice, he does not say “doctrines of baptism” or “doctrine of baptism”. The word “baptism” is in its plural and therefore there is more than one kind of baptism for both Jews and Gentiles.
Sidharth
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Whenever the writer spoke of the Holy Spirit baptism, he uses the word “baptism” with the “in the Holy Spirit” or “in Spirit”. But wherever the Bible simply mentions “baptism” or “baptized”, it is speaking about the Christian water baptism.
Here are some places where “baptism” or “baptized” is mentioned alone:
“Know ye not that, so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of Father, we also should walk in the newness of life” (Romans 6: 3, 4)
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3: 27)
“One Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4: 5)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:12)
What does it mean to be baptized into Christ? It is to be baptized into his death. The sacrament of baptism involves immersing a person completely under water. Thus the baptism in water mainly symbolizes our death and burial with Jesus. But as the person baptized comes out of the water, it symbolizes his resurrection with Jesus.
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Sicarri, I am blessed by your writing today! I just found this post, and I don’t know how I missed it. It’s really awesome when God confirms what He is doing with His followers. Many times I have written something, or felt like writing something, only to find out that many others who are in His Spirit are on the same topic.
I admire your humble approach to the issue of tongues. It is quite a controversy, and I personally have never understood the great debate over this. To me, the Word of God is pretty clear on this particular Gift, but I understand that many do not read the Word of God with the Holy Spirit’s help. It’s impossible to understand through natural eyes, so keep seeking God on this, and He will reveal the Truth to you. I’d say both experiences that you talked about were entirely wrong, and are the reason why many people are so confused about the Gift of tongues. Don’t look to man for answers on this. Everyone has their opinion, but there is only One that matters.
If you are asking Him for Truth, He is not going to lead you into deception. We are commanded to test the spirits, and we do this by making sure they point to Jesus. The devil isn’t going to lead you to the Lord.
There are false tongues, and there is deception, but if the Spirit of Truth is inside you, He will warn you!
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Sidharth:
I am busy today since it is Chinese New Year, but nevertheless, I propose a inter-blog debate, if that’s fine with you (but nothing today)
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Justin,
That’s very true regarding the posts. I’ve only started blogging in June the past year and I have lost count of how many times the same thing has happened to me.
There are no coincidences, and I believe that God is telling us who serve Him through our blogs the same thing that we might reach the rest.
Thank you for the encouragement, brother. This issue is alike a stumbling block that I need to get past, hence my approach in learning more about it through studying the Word and learning from others.
It will take some time because of the scars, but at the appropriate time I’ll surely share what I have prayed for God to reveal to me.
Shalom!
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Daniel Chew,
I do not debate the Word of God. And I do not wish to discuss Scripture with you because you are not open to the manual. Each time Scripture was presented you[Daniel] have pointed to man’s theology and man’s practices. I don’t care what Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyer believes, I care only for the Word. And all that I believe is also experiential.
Scripture plainly speaks of the Spirit baptism and this experience was valid even 25 years [Acts 19:1-6] after the church began. I have experienced this and I do not debate on it just as much I do not debate on Salvation. However, I am open to the Word and will be part of any healthy discussions as long as you put aside private interpretation, “reformed theology” and allow the Word to interpret itself.
I have been in too many discussions in the past and when those who don’t believe in the Spirit baptism are unable to cope up with the evidence I put forth from Scripture, they go into conclusions like “It was for the Jews”, “It was to make them understand…”…..I ask them where that is written and they start vomiting all their theology. I am for the Word and will not accept any reformed theology but only what Scripture says.
I am not a Pentecostal nor am I a Charismatic, nor do I belong to any denomination, simply because God has called me to teach His Word to His Body. And anyone humble and receptive to the Word, will be blessed.
Sidharth
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I’ve been following this thread and was hoping that there’ll be some things I can learn but it looks like it ain’t gonna happen.
Just a word to Sidharth: you, Sir, need to learn to be humble!
Your last para just smacks of such arrogance! Even Paul encouraged others to check his teachings against Scripture. You just seem to assume that you know all and are called to teach all who are humble enough to come to you.
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Dear Seeking Truth,
You have misunderstood me, brother.
“And anyone humble and receptive to the Word, will be blessed.”. when I said that, I included myself in it. I just re-read what I wrote and I realized it could be read as “I have been called to be a teacher of the Word and so whatever I say is right”. Absolutely not! I can go wrong, and I have gone wrong many times. But God’s Word is awesome, infallible, and absolute! We who humble ourselves to His Word, will truly be blessed and go into a different level of intimacy with Him. =)
However, my surety in this area of Spirit baptism is the same as of how sure I am in the truth of salvation. That I don’t believe is arrogance =)
If you will mail me personally, we could talk on this. And I would love to! =)
I hope I made myself clear.
Sidharth
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And again, about God’s calling to teach…. I strive day and night studying Scripture because I sincerely want the truth and want others to have the truth. I don’t care if I am proved wrong by the Word, for according to Scripture “correction is like anointing oul poured on your head”. I must convey the truth via clear and simple contextual teaching. This is what God has called me to, and my undying desire.
You can ask Isaiah [Sicarii] how we studied the Word together on this aspect. We had the Word alone as our focus. We need more people like him who are open to the Word, only such people will be blessed. Others will accumulate knowledge and be ferrocious debators, but they can’t be blessed because to them giving up their theology for the Word hurts their ego.
Hope to talk to you soon! =)
Sidharth
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Hi Sidharth,
“Scripture plainly speaks of the Spirit baptism and this experience was valid even 25 years”
Someone once said that the book of Acts are descriptive not are prescriptive (or something to that effect).
“…nor do I belong to any denomination, simply because God has called me to teach His Word to His Body. And anyone humble and receptive to the Word, will be blessed.”
That statement is nothing new. Think Plymouth Brethren (Exclusive branch) …
Put it another way, what is the difference between you (+ your teaching) and the Pope?
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Someone probably said that, but Bible says, “All Scripture is profitable for doctrine…”
Ah, you need to read my later post, JL. I think you misunderstood me in the same aspect. I can go wrong, but humility towards the Word, causes you and I to be blessed.If Pope was open to the Word, he’d be blessed too
Sidharth -
“Someone probably said that, but Bible says, “All Scripture is profitable for doctrine…”"
Key word: doctrine
I don’t think I misunderstood you… and yes, you can go wrong, that I am sure.
You are joking, right? If Pope was opened to the Word, he would not call himself Pope.
Jenson
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Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [Hebrews 6:1,2]
Doctrine of “baptisms” emphasized.
And I believe Acts of the Apostle is Word of God and the work of the Spirit through the apostles. If it were works of men or words of men that we had to quote from there, then it wouldn’t be the basis of sound doctrine.
And if you’re willing, I can discuss this topic with you as well, JL. =) Our goal…..to know Him more and to grow closer to Him. Please do mail me your e-mail ID and we can probably talk on this. God willing, even chat on Gmail / MSN as I do with Isaiah.
Sidharth
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Hi Daniel and Sicarii,
Actually, I just started a blog at http://john-bunyan.blogspot.com/. Have been procrastinating for a long time, but I finally got down to it — just to pen my thoughts. I’ll probably only get a chance to update it once a week though, because my job consists of long working hours. =/
Hello Sidharth,
Just a few observations for now…
- The verses you cited are the most commonly used proof-texts for a private prayer language. I will address your points in upcoming blog posts, because I simply don’t have the time right now. In the meantime, if you are interested, please read up on the conservative interpretations of these verses. Many godly Christian leaders far more competent than I, have written books and articles about this topic.
On a side note, I noticed that you classified John Macarthur as a heretic in another comment. While I don’t agree with all of Macarthur’s views, I am quite certain that he is not a heretic. Many Christians like me are thankful that God has raised leaders like Johnny Mac to preach the Word in season and out of season. Your comment alone implicitly tells me a lot about your skills as a Bible teacher. While I understand that you are trying to contend for the faith, I hope you will read up more on the other viewpoints and carefully think through these issues before hastily pronouncing judgment on others.
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Great stuff, John! At least now I don’t longer have to associate you with James Bond.
I’ll be there often, brother.
Shalom! -
Dear John,
I have been researching this topic for years, brother. I’ve heard your interpretation and many other interpretations on this topic. And as long as you take the Word as your manual, I am confident we can come to a conclusion on this. The Word of God exposes any false doctrine ;). I will question every interpretation from the Word and nothing outside Scripture will be permitted in the discussion.
I don’t think blogging is a good idea. I already have a few blgos that I regularly read and it’s hard for me to accommodate more ;). We need to e-mail each other or chat on Gmail. Please do e-mail me using our prayer request column
Sidharth
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I think it’s great if John is going to share via his blog, Sidharth.
Use BlogLines or any other reader.
Shalom! -
Dear Isaiah,
I am not a person who reads too many blogs. And it’s easier for me to handle one person at a time. I have once been invited into a Baptist group and I couldn’t handle them because all of them were asking different questions and some deviated from the topic. One person would bring in a verse out of context and then I had to explain that, and get back to the main discussion and in the end I was exhausted. It’s always safe to handle a person one at a time in a discussion. This is my personal opinion.
Sidharth
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Sidharth:
so be it then. If you refuse correction according to the Scriptures, and do not want private interaction, then I would just have to intreract with your false teachings publicly. For someone who claims to be humble, you sure behave the opposite. And trust me, you are not the first, and will not be the last, who behave this way. History is full of people who confidently claim they are biblical but yet their teachings blatently contradict the Scripture. As a philosopher once said, “Those who forget the past who destined to repeat it”.
I will start later, after the Chinese New Year celebration.
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Look who’s talking =D And do you see yourself as history too?
Anyone but you, Daniel. God be the judge. I do not even desire to discuss with you in public. I get involved in discussions only where the Bible is the basis. But you have lot of philosophies and sayings and reformed theology.
According to Daniel, God even hates sinners! =D
Sidharth
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I’m ending this discussion here, because I feel this is getting no where. And no one can be edified from us bashing each other. I sign off this discussion, but I am available to help anyone who sincerely want to know the truth about the Spirit baptism and the gifts of the Spirit.
If I have hurt anyones feelings or brought some sort of discord, I apologize for it. That was not my intention. But I do sincerely want to help those who need help in this area. I do know that there a lot of counterfeits and abuse of gifts in the Pentecostal and Charismatic world. And I do not agree with most of what they say or many things they do.
I strive to teach on this because the baptism in the Spirit brought a life-changing and genuine empowerment in my life. I must say, don’t back off with the counterfeits. God’s gifts are real and true, so is the experience of the outpouring of the Spirit.
Much love to all of you,
Sidharth
TWJ Ministries -
Hello Sidharth,
I don’t know if you’ll be reading this post. For now, I’d prefer to blog about this than correspond over IM. Blogging publicly will allow me to share my views with others and to learn from them as well. This is especially important if I am indeed guilty of preaching false doctrine or quenching the Spirit. You’re most welcome to drop by and comment there.
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